Bob Dylan: ISFP or INFP?
October 15, 2012
|
Posted by admin
Some people come to this site after having read David Keirsey‘s portraits of the ISFP and the INFP. These people understandably think that out of those two portraits, the INFP portrait is the better fit for Bob Dylan.
Having read the portraits ourselves, we agree: Going by Keirsey’s portraits, INFP really is the better fit for Bob Dylan. But from a Jungian perspective, Dylan is still ISFP. Here’s why:
- ISFPs do not merely live “in the world of the senses”, as Keirsey’s portraits of the SP types would have you believe. Nor are they exclusively “sensers”. SP types also have an intuitive function (Ni), which is tertiary in the ISPs and repressed in the ESPs.
- So ISFPs have tertiary Ni, that is, they have Fi-Se-Ni. By contrast, INFPs have secondary Ne, that is, Fi-Ne-Si.
- Now as we know from Myers, Jung and van der Hoop, types who have Ne as one of their two top functions (such as INFPs) tend to find self-expression easy and typically pass through many different ideas, and perspectives on those ideas, over time.
- By contrast, we know from the same authors that the concepts distilled by Ni tend to have a hard time finding an outwards expression that adequately conveys what is going on inside. And likewise, we know that Ni types tend to cycle through fewer ideas over a lifetime than Ne types.
- (Exempt from this are ESP types. They repress Ni and so can resemble Ne types in working through lots of ideas. Likewise, ISJ types repress Ne and so can resemble Ni types by staying true to a few select ideas over a lifetime.)
- So Ne types tend to find self-expression easy and Ni types tend to find self-expression difficult.
- Of all the 16 types, the ISFP is perhaps the type that is the most at odds with expressing themselves adequately, because of their Fi-Ni axis. But their difficulty with traditional modes of self-expression will frequently be made up for by ingenious modes of alternative self-expression. (Through music, art, design, etc.)
- So Bob Dylan is not a “senser.” Regardless of whether he is INFP or ISFP, the man would still have a conscious interplay of both intuitive and sensing functions (as opposed to the types who repress either their intuition or their sensing).
- So the real question with regards to Bob Dylan is if Ne-Si or Se-Ni is the better fit for his personality. And as you can tell by now, we think the best fit is Se-Ni because his ideas are more singular and deeply ingrained and because difficulty with verbal self-expression is a perennial theme for Dylan.
Note that we are careful to pertain the comparative “looseness” of INFPs to ideas, rather than values. The values of an INFP are usually every bit as deeply held as those of the ISFP, but as noted, their perspectives and ideas tend to be greater in number as well as more loosely entertained.
Categories: Psychology
|
Leave a reply
Nicely argued, I can’t help but find myself in agreeing with this. Also it just feels great to get active response like this.
Also if you want a real apple to bite into i suggest looking at the Enigmatic Captain Beefheart, my prediction is INTP (INFP thereafter)but the guy is beyond weird.
I am consistently typed 98% of the time as INFP (the other 2% INFJ or INTP), yet I have extreme difficulty in self expression outside of art and music. I feel like the INFP description fits me much better than INFJ, INTP, or ISFP, so it’s not an issue of error on behalf of Internet testing. Thus I have to disagree with your assessment, in terms of INFP/ISFP and ease/method of expression. This alone does not necessarily indicate Dylan as an ISFP.
The general always triumphs over the specific man
Pan: three things:
(1) What we say about difficulty of self-expression is a derived, general effect from the Fi-Se-Ni constellation that applies in Dylan’s case. The wellspring of the argument is the functions, rather than the derived effects. If you would make a case for Ne-Si fitting Dylan better, you are very welcome
(2) It is not uncommon for INFPs to feel like they have difficulty with verbal self-expression. They struggle to do justice to their introverted functions in the outer world. Yet when compared to the general population, INFPs, on average, still tend to be more “verbally fluid” than most others. So one must distinguish between one’s own feelings of having a hard time with self-expression and one’s actual objective ability.
(3) We do not base our entire argument on self-expression. You do not say whether you also identify with working through more ideas and perspectives over time and holding them more loosely (INFP) or if your ideas and perspectives are more singular and deep-seated (ISFP). As we say, you shouldn’t really place much stock in tests, including ours. They’re just a mere pointer to get beginners started.
Admin: Well put. I acknowledge that I clumsily omitted my clarification before that the reason I am zeroing in on the self expression point is because I do not know enough of Dylan’s music to form a sincere opinion on whether he is more of a “big picture” or “small details” type of person. I merely wanted to enforce the idea that INFP can be just as inarticulate as ISFP, which can be misleading. I am fully aware that I have difficulty expressing myself in conversation, much like many ISFPs I know. I realize it’s all in good fun, but wanted it to be known that there are variations within each type and one can’t really take things at face value… But I’m sure you knew that already
Interesting analysis! Still finding it a bit difficult to differentiate Se/Ni types from Ne/Si types. I’d like to see more explanation, particularly regarding Frank Ocean, who you have typed as Fi/Se/Ni.
Ni seems much higher in his stacking than Tert. He doesn’t seem at all like the other popular Fi/Se musicians who are more sultry and seductive and far less cerebral and metaphorical in presentation.
We are quite certain of Ocean’s type but of course as always we are susceptible to well-reasoned arguments.
As a general point one should not underestimate the power and charm of the puerile function. To give a more salient example, both ENTPs and ESTPs can have a rakish charm to them which owes its existence to their puerile Extroverted Feeling. The puerile function has a certain innocence and optimism to it that, for example, the auxiliary function does not. This is something we hope to cover in more detail in our upcoming book on types.
It is true that Ocean is more introspective (though outside of his lyrics not necessarily more metaphorical) than other Fi-Se individuals. This can relate back to other things such as a stronger introversion than other ISFPs, or to differences in intelligence (IQ), something which we try to avoid assessing on this site.
Quite a few individuals have aberrant traits relative to the type you would normally expect (e.g. Celine Dion, Lars von Trier). This is the difference between type and stereotype, if you will: When people first get into typing, many try to cram all psychological information on a person into the Jungian cognitive functions. And in doing so we are actually apt to betray the functions themselves.
That is why we introduce a dynamic qualifier in the typology of Theodore Millon (another thing we hope to cover in our upcoming book). Other people use the Enneagram (which we tend to stay away from) but essentially it serves the same purpose: To say something about a person’s personality outside of the cognitive functions themselves.
In the case of Frank Ocean, he avoids conceptualizations and associations in interviews. For example, he gets asked how far his music has taken him and he answers that it’s taken him to London. Likewise, he describes a music video where he wrecked a car and he says it was fun and again he shows a preference for staying with the actual experience and feeling that out to its fullest.
In doing research on him we watched every single interview that was avaliable on Youtube back then and he showed no interest in universalizing his messages or experiences. If we are to take him at his word (and admittedly we do not always do so when typing people), the personal and the particular ranks higher than giving general form to his messages and, you could argue, this is in no small part what makes him such an effective artist.
One of the most enlightened discussion on these two types I ever seen. And I definitely identify with the point about isfps being most at odds with expressing themselves.
I usually find your typings good. But this time I think you’re way off. Before trying to figure secondary and tertiary functions, I think one should look much more closely at what is the dominant function.
What makes Bob Dylan an original and talented artist? Is it due to a strong introvert feeling? I do not see that at all! He certainly does not appear to me as a rational type (T/F), and I see no strong reasons why he should be introvert.
To me, the core of Dylan is very much extravert intuition! It struck me as I was watching some interviews with him. The interviewers ask him kind of self-contemplative questions, but Dylan seem to get agitated by this. He rather confronts the interviewers with counter-statements and questions (libido directed to outer world), than look for answers inside his own head (I take it as if he wants to avoid introversion).
Makes sense if you look at songs like:
“Times a-changing..” (extravert intuitive constantly looking for change)
“It ain’t me babe” (an extroverted explanation of that he is not an introverted type)
“Don’t think twice..” (message “don’t use introvert feeling” – and he says it in a kind of non-sentimental sense)
In general I find his songs imaginative and often full of ideas, which indicates dominant intuition. There is of course some introversion in him, but I think way more extraversion – so I’d go for ENFP.
He is an introvert. Do your homework if you want to discuss stuff. Furthermore wasn’t it rather obvious that Dylan himself thought the interviewes were just probing him and trying to project the (in his view missconstrued) public image of Dylan unto him?
What he’s doing when he responds with counter questions is refuse those interviewers whatever parts of himself which he’d like to keep as such, which if anything is the act of an introverted artist. He prefers to speak honestly, but at the same time is unwilling to give himself completely in public, hence what follows.
I think he’d rather retain the enigma of his persona and artistry than to strip them of it, as doing so yields nothing of value. It is something atrocious in my mind to so strongly desire that all be layed bare and presented clearly, the essence and “point of it all” gotten to, quickly, efficiently, that one would deny any sublimity even to that which relies on it.
Imagine if Dylan had answered: “Ah my good man! Yes indeed t’was precisely the radioactive waste which I had in mind when I wrote Hard Rain! You see radioactive waste is bad and I ain’t having none of that stuff, politicians are stupid you know, gotta protest”
In my mind such an answer would belittle the song if anything, my own hearing of the song would be less personal and somewhat limited in its potential scope, if I knew beforehand the full extent of the intention behind it for one. And to what gain? For the masses to feel clever about themselves for listening to artist with an actual point,for the older part of the public to feel less anxious about Dylan knowing that at least he’s against nuclear waste and cares about stuff?
Points aren’t really hard to come by, in fact if the point of listening to songs where the points of them, then I’d say our civilization hasn’t come very far, because you can make points a lot more efficiently if you aren’t making art at the same time. For example you can write a book or a column. Indeed the point of Dylans artistry isn’t and wasn’t cowering explicit points in clever wordplay, as Dylans interviewers (though unknowingly perhaps to a certain extent) implied.
It’s really fascinating how at the time, whether or not Dylan was to be viewed as decripit or genius seemed to depend upon whether he had or had not meant to make certain rather simple points concerning contemporary politics. As if though his songs would play any different regardless. Naturally the difference would at least be markedly too small to warrant the fact that the majority of interviewers asked these questions. That is the difference on its own. What warrants it is that it in the mind of the public, a yes or no would’ve been enough for them to be able to determine whether Dylan was to be counted as a part of their collective strivings or not. Indeed that was the deciding point of whether his music was the good stuff or just pointless rambling, despite it having nought to do with his actual artistry. No doubt Dylan dislikes this phenomena and saw through it. That is to a certain degree, being able to explain it is another matter, and not having it fall on dead ears yet another entirely.
I would also urge you to not recklessly apply technical terms and methods you’ve read of when you don’t understand how they connect to reality. You can’t single out lyrics like that. Do you know how many songs Dylan have written? You could turn him into whichever of the 16 types you’d like with just one of his albums.
I’m an INFP. I’m terrible at expressing myself verbally, especially to people I don’t know well, mostly because I am very shy and always afraid of saying the wrong thing. I am very good at expressing myself through writing. I have some very deep seated personal values, and tend to cycle through ideas more fluidly and change my perspective on them over time.
But in which way are you bad?
Have you seen our INFP/INFJ video? Garfield would probably say he was bad at expressing himself (because that’s how INFPs often feel) but if you see the words coming out of his mouth they are still more eloquent that the average population.
Axel)
Indeed I speak of things I do not fully understand, but I am not slow to admit that either. Though I’ve read quite a lot about it I still think it’s often difficult to tell the difference between extraversion and introversion. I’ve been mistaken before, and I could well be mistaken again, but that won’t prevent me from keep speaking my mind.
I much agree with your analysis of his interviews. He wants to speak honest, but doesn’t want to give out too much of himself – and thus gives avoiding answers. But to what extent, and why, is it sign of introvertedness?
As for the songs I mentioned. None of them makes any proof that he was more of an extravert, but I think they can serve as indicators. There is a particular Dylan-spirit which is common in many of his songs. I’m inclined to think this Dylan-spirit is more extraverted than introverted, but I’m always curious to hear opinions on why I am wrong.